A Witness for Christ

(I’m sorry about the format below. When I pasted the doc into the blog it changed the whole format and took out spacing and line breaks etc.) I didn’t have time to fix it before the link to the holy order discussion was posted. Also, I'll add more to these answers as I have time).

In an effort to understand the holy order, a group of followers of Christ have put together a series of discussions focused on the information given in a talk by Denver Snuffer here: https://restorationarchives.net/pdf/2017.11.14_The-Holy-Order_paper.pdf#page=3.

I would invite you to read his talk after reading the 10 talks he gave to LDS people along the LDS corridor. Those talks can be found here: https://thetentalks.com/

The fifth one is on priesthood: https://restorationarchives.net/pdf/2013.11.02_Talk-5_Priesthood_transcript_RE.pdf This talk sheds light in helping one rediscover what priesthood is and what it is not.

The holy order is a more in depth look at priesthood. The Holy Order talk was divided into sections to discuss. I was asked to sit on a panel and share thoughts and insights into what this section of the talk may be about. I don’t feel like an expert but I am willing to share thoughts about the materials shared. Here is the discussion I was a part of: https://youtu.be/Yfg0lIGXfOg?si=C378mx0Ror86i8Rc

Here is the link to all the discussions on the holy order talk given by Denver: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1EtZOltlntDMIzs6fneloQzVkXqEco9-&si=5HlVrYFIdHiJekXv

At the end of the panel discussion I was a part of, some questions were put forward and we reconvened to discuss them. Here are some thoughts we shared https://youtu.be/l5HXLLHuzxU?si=YbdLZZ5wW342dAPk

and then I also created a document with some references that may be helpful. Again, I’m not an expert on the subject, these were just some thoughts and then some reference points found on www.scriptures.info.com

If it helps at all, great. I didn’t go into scriptures on some responses and others I did. The point is to point you to the source, Jesus Christ, and the ways in which he sheds light and truth in our minds and hearts.

Here are the questions we entertained and some thoughts and verses that came to mind as a response. I could add more scriptures but wanted to have more of a conversation about the topic and hopefully that is another prodding to guide us to the source, Jesus Christ.

The questions:

1. Section 157 is the Lord's acknowledgement and acceptance of our repentance, followed by an explanation of what "this gospel" is and how to obtain it. The final step in receiving "this gospel" is to be adopted into His family and become a member/holder of the Holy Order. What are the specific steps to reach that point?

Abraham’s life and the Book of Abraham show us exactly how to reach that point. The Glossary of Gospel Terms gives several great references for “this gospel.” The gospel in the Book of Mormon teaches one how to be redeemed from the fall, enter into the presence of the Lord (see RE Ether 1:13). D&C 93:1 and D&C 88:67-69 teach how to see his face.

Abinadi taught what it is to become the sons of God.

Maybe I'm breaking protocol by sharing my opinion. I believe it is to repent, come unto him, enter his presence and receive his voice. You truly join his family and become a member of the holy order by being like Him and He acknowledges that with his voice and presence. That involves as much time and experience as we need until we repent fully (change to become like them).

There is no magic way. It’s gut wrenching and difficult to repent and forgive. Only he knows where we are at so we have to ask him the next step in our repentance.

I don’t think it’s as elusive to us as we want to make it out to be. It’s just hard to do what is in front of our noses.

2. How is the gospel as provided to Abraham related to the definition of the gospel delivered by the resurrected Christ to the Nephites in Third Nephi, chapter 12?

Some thoughts but I liked the other responses better than what I posted here.

The gospel is big but simple. It starts with milk and ends with more and more meat. The Lord reveals what we need to know as we can handle it. He gave the children of Israel the law of moses. He wanted to give more but they weren’t ready to come back into the presence of the Lord, enter into his rest (see T&C 82:13; D&C 84). Same wording in 3 Nephi 12, “entereth into his rest”. He works with us the same. He wants us to be like him and he reveals more and more of what we can repent of the more we repent (see Ether 5:5). We won’t be given more until we receive by acting on what we’ve been given (see 2 Nephi 12:6).

It’s also instructive to remember what we’ve learned about priesthood. It is the association of angels, messengers, then Jesus and then God, the Father. So, if we have a messenger among us receiving angels and then Jesus and he is delivering the message of them to us, then that is what we can work on until more is given. We can recognize God’s voice through the messenger.

Interesting in 3 Nephi 12 it mentions the gospel is Jesus coming into the world to do the will of his Father. Since we learn that Jesus is the prototype of the saved man, then we learn we must be here to do the will of our Father who sent us too.

3. What exactly is the gospel as we have it today vs the gospel as revealed to Abraham? Not all of us have the same foundation. Never Mormon Christians claim they have Christ's true gospel, and Mormons are apostate. Mormons use the phrase "the fullness of the gospel," and the rest of Christianity is apostate. Did Joseph Smith really restore the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Do we in these Restoration fellowships have a greater fullness? What SPECIFICALLY is the difference between what we have now compared to the gospel delivered to Abraham? (obviously it's "the Holy Order." I'm asking about the difference)

A search on www.scriptures.info for “fullness of the gospel” brought these references up below.

(Teachings and Commandments) Glossary: Times of the Gentiles Joseph Smith was instructed by a heavenly messenger on Sept. 23, 1823 that the fullness of the gentiles was soon to come in (see JSH 3:4). ... Modern revelation states that the times of the gentiles is that time when the fullness of the gospel will come among the gentiles (see T&C 31:6–7). ... The times of the gentiles will be fulfilled in that generation when the gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel (3 Nephi 7:5), and they receive it not (T&C 31:6). ... The Lord will then bring the fullness of my gospel from among them. ... And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them (3 Nephi 7:5).

(Teachings and Commandments) Glossary: Fullness of the Gospel It is in this sense that the term is used in T&C 69:3: The ascent to God is the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. ... It continues throughout.1 Third, the Lord has used it to describe an everlasting covenant: “…the fullness of my gospel which I have sent forth in these last days, the covenant which I have sent forth to recover my people which are of the house of Israel (T&C 23:3; 31:3; 52:1; 1 Nephi 3:4). ...

“Learning these ‘mysteries [of God]’ is the fullness of Christ’s Gospel.”2 The fullness of the Gospel consists of asking God, receiving answers, revelations, knowledge, and finally, in the Second Comforter. 3 1Preserving the Restoration, 19.2 The Second Comforter, 11.3 The Second Comforter, 114. (Book of Mormon) 3 Nephi 7:5 er unto the gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel — verily, verily I say unto you that after all this — and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them — and, thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations, and if they shall do all these things, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, Behold, saith the Father, I will bring... And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. ... And I will shew unto thee, O house of Israel, that the gentiles shall not have power over you, but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fullness of my gospel. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 146:7 This messenger proclaimed himself to be an angel of God sent to bring the joyful tidings that the covenant which God made with ancient Israel was at hand to be fulfilled, that the preparatory work for the second coming of the Messiah was speedily to commence, that the time was at hand for the gospel in all its fullness to be preached in power unto all nations, that a people might be prepared for the Millennial reign. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 90:3 And then comes the day when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power, in convincing the nations, the heathen nations, the house of Joseph, of the gospel of their salvation.... For it shall come to pass in that day that every man shall hear the fullness of the gospel in his own tongue and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power, by the administration of the Comforter, shed forth upon them for the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 157:16 I promised to bring unto you much of my gospel through the Book of Mormon and to provide you with the means to obtain a fullness of my gospel, and I have done this; yet you refuse to receive the truth, even when it is given unto you in plainness. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 26:5 And again, the elders, priests, and teachers of this church shall teach the scriptures which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fullness of the gospel. ... And all this you shall observe to do as I have commanded concerning your teaching, until the fullness of my scriptures are given. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 69:23 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differeth from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fullness of the Father, even as that of the moon differeth from the sun of the firmament. ... Behold, these are they who died without law, and also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. ... These are they who receive of this glory, but not of this fullness. ... These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fullness of the Father. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 134:3 And next spring, let them depart to go over the great waters, and there promulgate my gospel in the fullness thereof, and to bear record of my name. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 157:20 The Book of Mormon was given as my covenant for this day and contains my gospel, which came forth to allow people to understand my work and then obtain my salvation. ... You have not obtained the fullness of my salvation because you do not draw near to me. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 138:24 It was by his voice that we were called to a dispensation of his gospel in the beginning of the fullness of times. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 157:14 The records of my apostles containing my New Covenants were to contain the fullness of my gospel, but during the formation of the great and abominable church, many parts were discarded and other parts were altered. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 18:5 And I have sent forth the fullness of my gospel by the hand of my servant Joseph, and in weakness have I blessed him. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 18:4 And there are none that do good, except they that are ready to receive the fullness of my gospel, which I have sent forth to this generation. ... And the poor and the meek shall have the gospel preached unto them, and they shall be looking forth for the time of my coming, for it is nigh at hand. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 23:6 And inasmuch as they do repent, and receive the fullness of my gospel, and become sanctified, I will stay my hand in judgment. (Teachings and Commandments) Glossary: Heavenly Gift An offer made directly from the Lord, often through a new gospel dispensation, with Heaven’s intent to bestow the fullness of the gospel and priesthood upon a generation. ...This fullness includes an expanding scriptural canon, revelation, Heavenly visitors, and prophetic power, as well as all blessings and sealing power necessary for fullness of salvation and exaltation.1 It has been offered by the Lord more often than it has been welcomed and accepted by mankind. ... When the fullness is accepted, people live in peace and happiness: And they had all things common among them; therefore, there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free and partakers of the Heavenly gift (4 Nephi 1:1). ... When the fullness is refused (by mankind not complying with the conditions of the covenant), the opportunity to establish a Heavenly order and Zion is lost. 2 1 Passing the Heavenly Gift, 8; see also 19, 87, 95, 212, 287, 346, 359; Hebrews 1:15.2 Commentary added to Glossary Jan. 31, 2019. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 151:14 Neither can they or us be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also, for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fullness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole, and complete, and perfect union and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories, should take place and be revealed, from the days of Adam even to the present time. ... And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this the dispensation of the fullness of times. (Teachings and Commandments) Joseph Smith History 15:7 Wherefore, I must bring forth the fullness of my gospel from the gentiles unto the house of Israel. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 139:18 Your humble servant, or servants, intend from henceforth to disapprove of everything that is not in accordance with the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and is not of a bold, and frank, and an upright nature. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 52:1 Verily I say unto you, blessed are you for receiving my everlasting covenant, even the fullness of my gospel sent forth unto the children of men, that they might have life and be made partakers of the glories which are to be revealed in the last days as it was written by the prophets and apostles in days of old. (New Testament) John 1:3 And as many as believe on his name shall receive of his fullness. ... And of his fullness have we all received, even immortality and eternal life through his grace. ... For the law was after a carnal commandment, to the administration of death, but the gospel was after the power of an endless life through Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 23:3 You shall preach the fullness of my gospel which I have sent forth in these last days, the covenant which I have sent forth to recover my people which are of the house of Israel. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 31:6 And when the times of the gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fullness of my gospel, but they receive it not, for they perceive not the light and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men. (Teachings and Commandments) Lectures on Faith 4:1 Having shown in the third lecture that correct ideas of the character of God are necessary in order to the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation, and that without correct ideas of his character, the minds of men could not have sufficient power with God to the exercise of faith necessary to the enjoyment of eternal life, and that correct ideas of his character lay a foundation, as far as his character is concerned, for the exercise of faith so as to enjoy the fullnessof the blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even that of Eternal glory, we shall now proceed to show the connection there is between correct ideas of the attributes of God and the exercise of faith in him unto eternal life. (Teachings and Commandments) Section 146:5 They told me that all religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines, and that none of them was acknowledged of God as his church and kingdom, and I was expressly commanded to go not after them, at the same time receiving a promise that the fullness of the gospel should at some future time be made known unto me.

I would add: Going to each of these references gives a lot of knowledge to understanding the fullness of the gospel. I think pondering and praying over what the differences were in what Joseph Smith and Denver have brought forth open the windows of heaven to distill upon one the differences. What have Joseph and Denver restored that is similar to what Abraham received and shared with his posterity?

4. Perhaps a better question would be: What are the pieces of "this gospel”?

See Glossary of Gospel Terms, “Seed of Abraham.”

See Glossary of Gospel Terms, “Great Knowledge and Greater Knowledge”

If we look at what Abraham did, he reconnected to heaven, found the possessor of the holy order, Shem (Melchizedek), the additional knowledge he had to give him, then he was received by God into his presence and received his voice directly to him. Then he taught his posterity the gospel, to rise up and receive the Lord too. It’s explained on pages 206-211 in Teachings of Denver Snuffer Jr., Vol 4; 2017.

5. Succinctly, what is the Holy Order?

On page 205 of “The Teachings of Denver Snuffer, Jr. Vol 4: 2017,” it says, “In essence, the Holy Order is to create of flesh and blood a living, mortal surrogate for the Father and Mother.” [definition of surrogate: a person acting on behalf of someone else or as a substitute]

A Witness for Christ

Tuesday, April 9, 2024

What Was Significant in the Eclipse?

Friday, March 15, 2024

True Messengers or True Messages?

Wednesday, March 6, 2024

The Widow’s Mite

Tuesday, January 30, 2024

“One Soul Shall Not Be Lost”

Monday, January 29, 2024

Gender Confusion Amongst LDS Leaders

Wednesday, January 24, 2024

Holy Order

Saturday, January 20, 2024

Church Appointed Head of Communications