I wonder if the Jews in John and Jesus’ day had a similar tradition of belief to “not speak evil of the Lord’s anointed?” When John called them vipers and Jesus called them whited sepulchers, I wonder if the Pharisees persuaded the people that true servants of God would never speak ill of church leadership. After all, Moses was called by God and they had a continuous line of authority from Moses to their present day (Matthew 23:2).
All they had to do was trust Caiphas, the high priest!
I wonder if after hearing Jesus in Matthew 23, they called Him cynical and negative? Did they insist He look at the good and positive in church leadership and quit looking for the bad? Think about it. Every time someone points out another lie, abuse of power or false tradition or belief, instead of seeking the truth and if one should repent, they attack the person giving the criticism. Criticism is what gets us thinking inwardly so we can repent. If no one thinks critically then we all go to hell together on the good ship Zion, even though it has holes in it, to use Renlund’s analogy.
In one chapter count how many insults and calls to repentance Jesus gives to church leadership:
“1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat [line of authority]:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi” (Matthew 23:1-7).
“13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?” (Matthew 23:13-19).
“23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [they claimed to uphold the words of Moses, the prophet, while condemning the greatest prophet of all, Jesus].
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23:23-39).
And this gem:
“2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness” (Luke 3:2).
Wait, the word of God came to John, not the high priests, the prophets? Oh ya, they were false prophets and the true prophets were the ones not popular because they were calling out the church and leadership for their errors.
Is there anything we can learn and apply to our lives today?
Wendy Nelson recently used the analogy of the emperor’s new clothes. She implied Pres. Nelson was the boy in the crowd calling out the truth that the emperor had no clothes on. Are you kidding me?!?!? He’s the emperor kicking out all the children pointing out the truth.
Here is the account she gave to the European Saints recently:
"Today I’d like to talk with you in Europe about truth and prophets. In the literary folk tale the emperor's new clothes by Danish author Hans Christian Anderson, swindlers convinced the emperor that the new attire they made for him is of the most exquisite pattern, material, and colors. They emphasize that anyone who cannot see the extraordinary clothing is unworthy of his office or simply stupid. Everyone is duped by the charlatans even the emperor's most trusted officials. All the town's people join in the chorus telling the emperor how magnificent he looks as he proudly parades in front of them. No one wants to be thought of as stupid. However, one child boldly proclaims the emperor has no clothes on and that was the truth. Today it can be difficult to know who speaks the truth, but my testimony is that prophets of god always speak the truth. While many in the world's great and spacious building convincingly profess that evil is good and good is evil. Prophets speak the truth....
And now how will your life be blessed as you choose to follow President Russell M Nelson the prophet of god on the earth today who for four years has led The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints under the direction of Jesus Christ himself. I’m grateful that my husband is the kind of man who many years before he was called to be an apostle said quote, “I never ask myself when does the prophet speak as a prophet and when does he not. My interest has been how can I be more like him” end quote. As his wife, may I offer you several examples of president nelson's life that you may want to emulate." Here is the link https://youtu.be/ySiSVjuIsmM
So, do we emulate the life of Pres. Nelson, the Caiaphas of our day, or should we emulate Jesus Christ, the true great high priest? I choose Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith.
The truth about the “safe and effective” sorceries are coming out. Pfizer was just forced to bring out their studies. https://dpbh.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/dpbhnvgov/content/Boards/BOH/Meetings/2021/SENEFF~1.PDF
And one more:https://rumble.com/vt7r0o-registered-nurse-nicole-sirotek-shares-what-she-saw-on-the-front-lines-in-n.html
We need to see clearly through the lens of the Holy Ghost. Draw near unto Him and He will draw near unto you. Let’s not put our trust in the arm of flesh, but in God.
Hi Greg,
ReplyDeleteAre you open to having alternative opinions on these blogs? In offering a different perspective, I hope not to be contentious. I know some people interpret "let them worship how, where and what they may" to mean that we shouldn't voice disagreement. Persuasion should still be on the table. Certainly we are able to share differing views.
Yes, I agree that Christ was not pleased with the Pharisees and did not approve of their authority. Bad religious leaders have and will always exist. But how does that truth make the concept of speaking evil of God's anointed a false notion? Also troubling - Is a person righteous just because the world thinks he's crazy, like John the Baptist? Or are some crazies actually crazy? Let's start with the pharisees.
There is precedent for religious leaders going astray. There are also many instances when a church has been established and the Lord expects his people to sustain His servants.
Did Alma do right by "blotting out" names and disciplining those who fought against the church? It would seem so. When King Benjamin had many false teachers come among them and he punished them according to their crimes, did he error? Did not Joseph Smith teach but also implement practices whereby those who railed against the church would be removed from church membership? Do we not read in Nephi that there is woe pronounced upon those who fight against the twelve apostles of the lamb? Christ requires his disciples to receive his servants.
Proving the Pharisees were false leaders doesn't prove that we should criticize true leaders. The strawman fallacy is at play. The arguments don't support the claims being made. Righteous opposition of the Pharisees does not justify opposition against true prophets and leaders across times and cultures.
If you don't believe President Nelson is a prophet, that is one thing. But, let's pretend that he was God's servant, or that someone else was. Would the Lord look favorably upon your assertion that criticizing His leaders is an appropriate way to establish Zion just because he criticized the Pharisees as false leaders?
Then there is the false equivalence fallacy. The only connection made between the Pharisees and the prophets in the latter days is that they are both considered leaders of religious organizations. That doesn't make them equivalent. Much more persuasive argument is needed to tie the beliefs and practices of these two very different groups together.
Also, we know how Christ felt about the Pharisees from scripture, but do we have His word on how He feels about President Nelson or the twelve? We only have your word about how you feel about President Nelson. So, Christ's feelings about the Pharisees have been compared to your feelings about church leaders ... that's problematic. In addition, the equivalency made between true prophets needing to be crazy men is falling victim to the same fallacy. Not all good leaders follow the crazy man pattern.
The arguments in this blog not only go against logic, they introduce Red Herrings in the form of massive swaths of scripture that do nothing to actually prove the point. Yes, all those scriptures prove we should avoid following false leaders, but they don't prove that it is acceptable to speak evil of God's leaders. Scripture concludes the opposite on many occasions. Can anyone actually imagine a God that doesn't want his children to support and sustain his prophets? That is a God I can't believe in.
To conclude, there is great evidence that God does want His people to receive His servants. It is so pervasive in scripture to remove all doubt. I do agree that false teachers and false prophets should be avoided.
Thanks for allowing me to share a differing view. Like you've mentioned, by getting different perspectives, having disagreements, and even receiving some criticism, it can all be very helpful for our growth and progression.
Ben,
ReplyDeleteGood discussion. Thanks for your reply. I’m a little frustrated because i wrote a long response and then it deleted when I posted it. Ugh. So, hopefully I have time to get a response in before continuing my work.
I would agree with you that true messengers, prophets, are important. One that has taken the road to knowing the Lord face to face, knows the path to get there and can give valuable instruction on the process to enter the Lord’s presence. Joseph Smith and Moses both fit this description of a true messenger who knows how to point us to the Lord.
The Pharisees and current church leadership made no claims of knowing the Lord, face to face. In fact, Pres Oaks says neither he nor his brethren have had that experience. If you haven’t seen that I can send it to you. It is common through all the scriptures for the prophets to testify of seeing and hearing the audible voice of the Lord. They give messages straight from Him to the people.
I don’t hear Russell Nelson stating the Lord told him to tell us the vaccine is “safe and effective,” rather he says to trust in competent medical professionals etc.
If one believes Russell Nelson has seen the Lord, then we must do what the Lord instructed to know a false from a true prophet, “by their fruits ye shall know them.” I have shared extensive fruits of the current church leadership on past posts. UN connections, money accounts accumulated from tithing funds, shopping malls, calling medical experiments safe and effective, etc. There are many more doctrinal discrepancies as well.
The doctrinal discrepancies show up in studying the gospel as revealed to Joseph Smith and the gospel the church teaches today. I have posted much on this subject. Polygamy is one of many. Joseph fought against it and the church says Joseph practiced it. I have extensive blog posts on this subject showing Joseph fought it and the church adopted the practice under Brigham’s leadership.
Another doctrinal discrepancy is Joseph agonizing over the darkness of the minds of the people because they were focused on him as a prophet instead of on the Lord. The current church leadership, commonly called prophets, seers and revelators, teach the opposite. They continually point to each other as one’s to follow, especially to follow the current church president. Joseph lamented about the church following the leaders, the current leaders focus upon it.
Wendy Nelson even focused her audience on her husband. I believe Joseph would cringe at those comments.
So, I don’t believe you have cause to say I’m throwing red herrings out. I believe these are concrete examples of a few differences in a true and a false prophet.
You may still disagree, I’m sure you do. As I’ve shown, I have concrete reasons for sharing what I’ve shared and I’m not basing my beliefs on fallacy.
I hope you’ll make time to go to my other blog posts that continue to show the fruits of the church. A recent post has a lady’s video showing all the connections between the UN and the LDS church. Anyways, lots to share but i gotta run.
Also, my post was showing how Jesus was critical of those that were the church leadership of His day. They thought they were the chosen people of the Lord because they had descended from Moses and kept the law restored through Moses. Jesus pointed out they missed the mark because their focus was on the traditions built up around the law and missed the whole purpose of the law. The lds do the same with the restored gospel through Joseph. We have the laws but it’s been distorted and changed over time to current false beliefs and traditions. Very pertinent to the discussion and how it is not logical to conclude it’s not Christlike to be critical of church leaders when they are teaching contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteThanks Greg,
ReplyDeleteIt appears we were at least able to agree that evil speaking of God's appointed and anointed leaders would be inappropriate. Just because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints encourages saints not to speak evil of the Lord's anointed does not in and of itself prove that they are not the Lord's anointed. Sustaining a prophet is a truth that should be followed under the direction of a true prophet. We can also agree, it seems, that just because someone is at odds with a particular group of religious leaders whom they do not believe to be the Lord's anointed, does not necessarily prove them to be in the right. It is possible they could be deceived and are actually fighting against the Lord's anointed like so many other stories in the scriptures.
With all that in mind - we are all left to discern the truth of prophets by their fruits, as you say. I think you and I have very different opinions on the fruits and I'm okay with that.
We also both agree that Joseph Smith was a prophet. He once stated that by proving contraries truth is made manifest. I shared that with you a couple of months ago and at that time you weren't familiar with the quote. It's a powerful idea for discovering truth because it helps us to not succumb to our biases by picking our favorite contraries in the gospel of Jesus Christ, but rather to explore both of the contraries. The fruits you identify often seem to favor one side of some pretty important contraries. Cherry picked fruit (pun intended) can be pretty harmful to our understanding of spiritual things. I have been grateful for the insights and increased understanding that have come when the spirit has helped prove both sides of a contrary true.
Best wishes in your spiritual journey, Greg. Say hello to your kids. Our kid's soccer teams could sure use them!
Ben, we do agree on many things. Prophets are important as they can be a vehicle in pointing us to the Savior, Joseph Smith is a true prophet, the Book of Mormon is the word of God and the Bible too, as far as they are translated correctly. Jesus is the Christ, our Redeemer. ...I would have to disagree though with your first statement. I do agree there are true messengers but that doesn’t mean we should not point out evil they do or say. It is always appropriate to shed light on evil, no matter who says or practices it. I believe there is a proper way to do this and Jesus is the example of how to do this. God is no respector of persons. I have two blog posts specifically on if the prophet can lead us astray. Those would show how necessary it is call out evil. Jeremiah, Isaiah and Ezekiel were all called upon by the Lord to call the prophets and the people they led to repentance. Even though the prophets they called to repent may have been considered to be anointed by the Lord.
ReplyDeleteAs far as contraries, I had forgotten the quote by Joseph but I very much believe in the practice of proving contraries. Thanks for reminding me of the quote. I have pondered it since and love it. As I ponder now, this is the whole reason I speak out on what I do. I have proven the LDS side of different doctrines, principles and policies for 40 years and now I have been persuaded of some errors taught and practiced in the LDS church. As I’ve studied the contraries, I’ve come to believe differently than the common teachings on some core traditions of the church. I’m trying to share my path with others so they can prove the contraries and seek revelation from God on where the truth is.
One thing to be aware of as one considers proving contraries. There is a trap by the evil one that one can fall into. He tries to teach others there is no devil and there is no truth. Sometimes the intellectual gets stuck in contraries and by the time he is done he can justify anything. If there is no right nor wrong, the devil wins and entangles us in his snares. There is absolute truth. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life. Wisdom is the correct application of knowledge and Jesus did this perfectly.
Keep enjoying soccer. You have a lot of knowledge of the game and I’ve sure appreciated the good you’ve taught my children that have played on your teams. What a great service you offer the community!
Also, I believe the sincere seeker of truth will find it. Saul is a great example of this. He was completely dedicated and I believe, sincere, therefore, God intervened and guided him to see the contrary to what he was teaching. He came to realize that Jesus, the one he persecuted and fought against, was that messiah he thought he was looking for through his training as a Pharisee. Then he changed courses and was a great warrior for truth and righteousness. It’s interesting to see his pendulum rock back in his letters in the New Testament. Much to learn there. Anyways, may God bless you in your spiritual journey as well.
Great post and discussion! It is ALL about the Fruit!
ReplyDeleteThe best way to judge your spiritual journey is to know whether your fruit is bringing you into the presence of Christ. Are the commandments you are following of men or from the Lord? Do you know the difference?
True fruit will bring an increase in light and knowledge. False beliefs will increase your devotion to men (or institutions). When you are obeying the Lord you will see an increase in spiritual gifts as these enable us to receive and discern the greater light and knowledge the Lord is teaching us. Are you able to commune with the Lord? Do you recognize His voice? Do you have interactions with angels? Do you have visions and dreams that teach, instruct and warn you?
If we are not seeing this fruit in our lives than we must examine the ground that we stand on. Do we have any false doctrines or unbelief that is holding us back? If we want to progress than we must seek the Lord to reveal these to us. Because Jesus cannot build upon a sandy foundation.
Lehi and Nephi are perfect examples of seeking the Lord and following direct commandments. They used their faith to seek after the Lord in all their questions and were willing to obey whatever they received. No matter what, even though it went against everything they had been taught their whole lives. Talk about contradictions! This is what it means to exercise faith. They were willing to sacrifice everything to obey the Lord and received great spiritual increase because of it. Laman and Lemuel chose to believe the traditions of their fathers and we know what direction they went.
If we don't believe that spiritual gifts are possible or necessary, than you deny the power of God and will damn your progression.
MORONI 10:7-17
7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.
8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.
9 For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the word of wisdom;
10 And to another, that he may teach the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
11 And to another, exceedingly great faith; and to another, the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
12 And again, to another, that he may work mighty miracles;
13 And again, to another, that he may prophesy concerning all things;
14 And again, to another, the beholding of angels and ministering spirits;
15 And again, to another, all kinds of tongues;
16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues.
17 And all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; AND THEY COME UNTO EVERY MAN SEVERALLY, ACCORDING AS HE WILL.
I am seeing an increase in spiritual fruit in those who are true disciples and servants of Christ as we come closer to Zion, which is the ultimate fruit to be produced in these last days. Will what we are following lead us to Zion? Exercise your faith, seek the Lord and be willing to receive any answer! It is the only way to know.
Perfect!!! Great thoughts and scriptures!!! Thank you for sharing and adding to the discussion.
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